Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome to Thriving.
Thriving is created by the discipleship and advocacy team of the Synod of Victoria and Tasmania Uniting Church in Australia.
This podcast is produced on the unceded land of the Wurundjeri people.
Hello, everyone, and welcome to Thriving. It's great to be here with you today. I'm on Wurundjeri country in Melbourne in naarm. It's great to be joined by Kirsten Oliver. Kirsten is in the uk. Hi, Kirsten.
[00:00:29] Speaker B: Hi, Sandeep. Hi. It's great to have you with us today.
[00:00:32] Speaker A: Kirsten was actually in Australia last year for a great big conference that Intergen ran on neurodiversity called Belonging by Design.
People really appreciated Kirsten's ability to explain what autism is like, what it's like to live with neurodiversity, and also some fantastic ways that we can support young people and adults who are neurodiverse to thrive in Christian communities. So I'm really excited to have Kirsten here today. Kirsten, can we start with you just introducing yourself and a little bit about how you got to where you are?
[00:01:05] Speaker B: Yes. So I'm Kirsten and I currently live in the uk. I was born in the uk, but I actually grew up in Brazil. So my parents were missionaries, and at the age of nine, we as a family moved to Brazil. And So I spent 14 years in Brazil. And I say that because I started. I did my university degree out in Brazil, and that's where I started working with the first person who now we know is autistic. But at the time, she didn't have a diagnosis, a little girl. And that's where I became passionate for the work that I do now.
I learned so much from her, and it was just that curiosity of being able to see that she could learn, but different to her peers and to her friends, but she still had that ability to learn, and that was in a mainstream school.
When I finished my degree, I returned to the UK and did a master's in autism studies. And being a Christian, I thought, let me do my research in the spiritual needs of autistic people, because we talk a lot about supporting them, for example, that little girl in school. But what about the faith and the spirituality of this person? So my research actually came out that we're not even talking about autistic people in church, let alone their spiritual needs.
And that's why I started and created Alma autism back in 2018. And that's also just continued to grow. And it's gone from just specifically autism to neurodiversity. And. Yeah. Into the sensory aspect of things. So that's a very short story about me.
[00:02:43] Speaker A: Fantastic. And I have met with you a couple of times and I've learned a lot and really appreciated spending time with you. So I'm looking forward to sharing what you've got to say with people in Australia.
So understanding about autism has grown enormously in the last five to 10 years. I know certainly in Australia, churches weren't terribly interested in talking about it until maybe the last two or three years and suddenly everybody wants to know more about it. I noticed, I don't know whether you saw, but the new Archbishop of Canterbury actually spoke about her dyslexia on, yes, the radio or on television just this week and was talking about the fact that, you know, God has created us all exactly as we are, even with whatever pieces of spiciness we might have. And it's exciting to see somebody of her calibre actually, you know, owning her disability, being prepared to talk about it openly and to speak about the importance of all of God's people being part of God's family.
Are you noticing a change in that in the UK?
[00:03:47] Speaker B: Yes, definitely. So, as I said back in 2018, nobody was talking about autism, so I started by raising awareness of autism. But now I would say I think the shift was post Covid.
So before COVID I. I was going to churches and community groups and saying, what are you doing about this? Or do you know about autism? But after Covid, people come to me and say, we need your help, we need your support. Can you come and help our church? And so I think people have. Have a desire to learn more. And a big difference that I'm seeing in the UK is I think everybody is more aware and more accepting. But now people want to go on that journey of how do we support people to be discipled and to be able to learn about Jesus? And so it's more intentional, not just, yes, we know about this condition and we're accepting of people's differences, but how can we go that next step in teaching them about the Bible and about the Gospel?
[00:04:52] Speaker A: So I actually was at a church yesterday talking to their youth and Sunday school workers about exactly this point. Cause I do this quite a lot too. And one of the things I was saying was that back, you know, probably before 2018, but certainly back when I was a teacher 15 to 20 years ago, we talk about bad behaviour and children's bad behaviour, almost as though they were doing it on purpose in order to get attention or to be naughty for the Fun of it. Whereas I think, I think what we understand now far better is that actually what's happening is that their sensory system, their body is overwhelmed. And so the, what we might call behaviour, the outward manifestation of what's going on is really a sign of their, of what's going on internally and that they're overwhelmed. Can you tell us something about what happens with sensory overload and overwhelm and what is going on for an autistic person when we see that sort of thing manifesting itself in public?
[00:05:47] Speaker B: Yeah, it's, it could be. I always say behavior is communication. So if, if a child is, I don't know, behaving in a certain way, always ask the question, I wonder what they're trying to communicate to me. Are they, I mean we've had heat waves here in the uk. So are they hot and bothered? Are they hungry?
Are they, are they bored? Because some children, they might not learn in one way of teaching. Like they might not be auditory learners actually they need engage and have a hands on experience to be able to feel connected.
And so one of an example that I read in a book once was of an autistic man and he explains that when people say for him to pray he has to be moving around because if you say stand still, close your eyes, we're going to pray his body. For him to be able to stand still, his brain has to focus. So because obviously neurodiversity is a different way of the brain processing information. So for his brain is just completely focused on making his body stand still. So he's not able to pray or to talk to God or focus and concentrate on that because he's all, all he's concentrating is on the, the physical aspect of standing still where if he's allowed to walk around because his body is moving his brain and this is obviously one example, but he says his brain is much calmer and regulated and he's able to talk to God a lot better through moving around. And so we look at these children that won't sit still. Yeah. And we're telling them to stop, but actually is that just going to make things worse? How can we help them to engage and. Yeah, to thrive in a way that they are able to.
[00:07:29] Speaker A: So one of the crucial things that we're now saying to people is actually what we need to do is we need to change the environment, change our expectations of ourselves and everybody in the setting so that people are able to respond in a way that keeps their sensory load down so that they're able to Engage. So for that man, being able to move around somewhere is a critically important thing. So we find a way to allow that to happen and those sorts of things. Can you give us a few more examples of some of the things we can do to change our environment to help people to feel more able to contribute and engage?
[00:08:07] Speaker B: Yes. So obviously, if you think into the senses, there's different aspects, very general ones, of the lighting and the sound. We can always ask people because sometimes we just think, oh, we can't change everything. But actually the people that you have, just ask them the questions and say, look, we might not be able to promise everything, but what can we start together now? What can we do to help you in this environment?
And so, yeah, the lighting, the, the temperature, even the seating. I always say about, like in church, I mean, there are some churches that are great and they have different seating options, but generally what I've seen is a church will have one option of seating. So if it is wooden chairs or wooden pews, for example, they might be really hard to sit on and all that person can concentrate is on how hard the seat is and it's uncomfortable. What can we do? If we offer a cushion for those that need it, then you're supporting them in that way. It's not a massive thing that you have to do by providing a cushion or just a couple of different seats where people will be able to sit comfortably. I always say that if you don't have the safety and the comfort rule or step in place, then people are never going to feel accepted. And for them to ultimately belong, they need to feel accepted in the group or in the church. And so the safety aspect of things, do they feel safe? And then the comfort. So comfort. Think more of the senses again. Are they at the right temperature? Are they literally sitting or standing? If they're allowed to move around, some of these aspects will make. They seem quite small, but they'll make a massive impact for some people.
[00:09:50] Speaker A: And tell me how it is for people who struggle with, with communication with people. When you walk into a building and everybody wants to talk to you, how could that make a particular person with autism feel?
[00:10:02] Speaker B: Yeah, we, as a church, again, generally speaking, we think that the more we do with our welcome, the better it is. But like you've just said, actually as soon as you walk into a church building and you've got all these people coming to and they think they're doing great at welcoming, which is a good thing for some people. Some people do want you to be in their face and come and say hello and exchange names and say, this is what the church is about and this is where you can find that. Even just as I'm saying this, it's a lot of information at once. And so by the time the service starts, a neurodivergent person could already feel overwhelmed by the information or by the amount of people.
So I think we need to, again, this is awareness. We need to be a little bit more aware of people's differences. And maybe again, it's asking the question, are you comfortable for me to keep telling you about the church or would you like me to come back later giving people space, making sure that, yeah, if one person has greeted them at the door, another 10 people aren't going to do that necessarily, if that's not something that they're comfortable with.
[00:11:06] Speaker A: Yeah.
I say it as though that would be the case for all autistic people. But I think one of the most true things I've heard people say is that if you've met one autistic person, you've met one autistic person and that everybody has different needs and different things that help them. That's. That's quite true, isn't it?
[00:11:23] Speaker B: It is, yes. And I always say, I've done my study. I did a master's specifically in aut, so I did psychology as my undergrad. I did a two year master's degree just studying autism. I'm doing a doctorate now, but tomorrow someone can walk through the doors who is autistic or neurodiverse and neurodivergent. And I still have to get to know them as a person. So I try to explain to people that having a label or a diagnosis is pretty much like, this will give you the basic information of what a condition might be like, some of the characteristics, but it's not going to give you the full picture of that person. Because we're all made differently. God create. I say we didn't come out of a factory, like piece of clothing with a label that says washing 30 degrees iron, et cetera, like the instructions of what you do with clothing, because clothing comes out of a factory, every piece the same. But we didn't come out of a factory. God created us in a unique way. And so that awareness as well is just for people to. No, yeah. Actually we need to be open to getting to know people and build that
[00:12:33] Speaker A: relationship magnificently and gloriously different.
[00:12:36] Speaker B: Yes. So what are some of the things
[00:12:39] Speaker A: we can do once, once worship started, once we're doing things together, what are some of the things we can do that will make it easier for people to be able to engage.
[00:12:48] Speaker B: So there's lots of things that we can do. The main one I would say is get to know people. So then you can implement the changes that might need for them specifically to.
On an individual basis. But you can also change some things in the environment that will actually benefit everybody. So whether it is providing a more structure way of saying what's going to happen in, in the morning or whatever time it might be, whether you have. So in my church we have on the side of the PowerPoint slides, we have what's coming next that that's there for everybody. And it does help people who are not neurodivergent, but people that may be neurotypical or have different conditions as well. Then we also have smaller handouts. So some because someone might want it like close up and follow along individually. For children, you might have it as picture symbols. Or adults with learning disabilities, they might need it as more as a picture rather than words.
So there's lots of things that you can do and it. I don't want to scare people and thinking, oh, this. That's a lot of prep. A lot of things that we do to support people. Actually you're going to prepare them once and then they are just. They. You reuse them all the time. One, One thing I do mention though is that keep adapting things. So you might start with that and then you might realize actually this might work better. So then just build on that. But, but start with something and then again by talking to people, you might talk to a family and they might say, well, actually this works better. Or could we have it on a different colored paper because my child or this person's dyslexic. So then you can adapt it into the correct color that works for them. So what I mean is you could start off by using slides that are a yellow background with like a navy blue font because that will support some dyslexic people. But then like I said, by talking to people, they might say, actually blue works better for me. And so you can change it either generally for everybody, or you can then provide for them what works best for them.
[00:14:57] Speaker A: Yeah, and that's a really quite simple thing to do, isn't it?
[00:15:00] Speaker B: It is, yes. Yeah. You can start with a general sensory box and then by getting to know well one, you could just have a sensory. If you don't have one in your church, you could start with a sensory box and then you will observe who is using it or who needs it. And who goes to it and then ask that person or that family, okay, we see that this is a need for your family.
Is there anything else that we can put in there that might benefit you better? That's, that's, that's what I mean by start with something and then build on from that.
[00:15:32] Speaker A: I've often provided like an activity for people who want to do something with their hands to reflect during the sermon or on the Bible while the Bible engagement's happening. Or, or in fact, there's a lot of women like to knit. I know I ran some training recently and said, you know, to all the women in the room, how many of you knit while the television's on? They're all putting their hands up. And I said, yes, well, why don't you bring it to church and knit while the sermon's on? Because if it helps you concentrate with the TV at home, it'll help you. You're allowed to do that. And they kind of looked at me a bit horrified and thought, oh, am I, am I really, Will I, you know, will the roof fall in? But you could, things like that are actually really, aren't they?
[00:16:11] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. And that's what works for them. For someone else, it might be a fidget toy. For somebody else, it might be coloring in or doodling. Everybody has a different way of being able to concentrate and engage with what's going on. And like you said, it's, it's given permission for people to do that. We shouldn't have to, but we, we need to still these days, give permission for people to say, actually do what's best for you.
[00:16:35] Speaker A: I walked into a church lead worship for the first time as a visiting minister last year, and there was a mother and a daughter both crocheting on, on one side of the church. And when I did my introduction and said, you know who I was, I said, I'm so excited to be at a church where people are doing crochet. That tells me this is a really warm and welcoming inclusive community and I'm looking forward to coming and checking out what you're doing a little bit later in the service. And they both beamed at me because
[00:17:02] Speaker B: I just, I had just said to
[00:17:03] Speaker A: them, you know, I, you don't know me, I'm a new minister, you've never met me before, but actually what you're doing is really cool. Go for it. And they, they felt safe with me being there and it was a really good thing to do.
[00:17:15] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a great thing. Also acknowledging people's interests.
So We, I always, when I'm getting to know someone, I will ask, what, what are you into? What do you like? What are your hobbies? And then a bit like you said, you went to them after the service to see what they had done during. Always go back to, like, do your research and go back to that person with their interests.
[00:17:38] Speaker A: It just.
[00:17:38] Speaker B: It's that warmth, isn't it? Of actually, you're interested in what I'm doing and what I like. And that helps build community as well.
[00:17:47] Speaker A: Sure does. Now, last year when you were here, you bought these fantastic sensory tray books with you. And I know we're hoping to get them to be able to be published here in Australia. We haven't quite got there yet, but
[00:17:59] Speaker B: can you tell us a little bit
[00:18:00] Speaker A: more about what the Sensory Tray Bible is, who you might use it with and how does it work?
[00:18:06] Speaker B: Yes. So the books, there are different editions of the book and for example, the New Testament edition, the Old Testament, then there's one just for Easter, one just for Christmas. And the books are a guide for people to make their own sensory tray Bible stories. So essentially what it is, is it's putting a Bible story in a visual way through lots of different sensory elements. I always try and use something that, well, they can. People can see it. I try and always put something that they can smell, that they can taste, something that obviously they can touch everything that's on the tray and things that they can hear. And so, yes, the book, it will give you a picture of the tray that I've made for the story, for example. And throughout the book, I give you, you can substitute this for that if you don't have necessarily exactly what I have on the tray. And then there's a list of things that I've used. So if you want it as easy as a shopping list, you can say, okay, I just need to go to the shop and buy these items that Kirsten has used. If you're creative, you can recreate it in however way you like. Then there's a page that obviously has the Bible story or the Bible verses from the story. And then the reflection and sensation page is how you would interact with the tray. So it's more question start like conversation starters. And it uses the sensory base as a way to reflect deeper into the story. So, for example, you might use the sensory rice. And in there I might say, pour the rice on the tray. Can you hear the rice?
And then it goes into how do we hear from God? So it uses the sensory aspect to then reflect deeper and it will depend on who you're using this with the wording of the questions that you use. So I always say throughout the books, you need to adapt it into the level or the wording of who's using it, who can use it. So the book is a guide. So it's, it's for the person that is creating the trays. But the trays can be used with all ages, all abilities. I have personally used it with children and adults, I will say teenagers as well love it. People who are neurodivergent, people who are neurotypical, people who have dementia and Alzheimer, it's worked really well with as well. So I think there are different benefits, that different people get different benefits from them. And yeah, in the back of the books as well, I've put like the taste safe recipes of what I've used in each book. I will say if you are working or doing this with somebody that, that you know that they don't put things in their mouths, you don't need to use food elements.
Try and keep it as taste safe as possible. Because a lot of the people that I do use sensory trays with have learning disabilities and they do tend to eat what's on the tray or try to put things in their mouth. So it's not that you're supposed to eat the tray, but I will try and use safe objects and no choking hazards, et cetera, depending on who is using the tray. And it can also be done as a personal reflection. So you might want to do this for a prayer space or just on your own. You might be that creative person that actually by creating this visual and using all these sensory elements helps you to take some devotional time and reflect on those questions on a personal way.
[00:21:34] Speaker A: So it can be personal devotion, it could be group.
And I imagine that the range of answers or the way people respond will depend on who they are, their age and stage. So if you do it with older people or teenagers, you might get a much more robust kind of answer than with small children.
[00:21:53] Speaker B: Yes, I, I don't really go by age because there are some small children that will come back to me with some questions about it and you can go quite deep in that. But if you think of people who are non verbal or people who don't really give you the feedback in a way that you're able to understand because I always say people are communicating, sometimes we don't understand the way that they are communicating. They might look up at you, they might smile. So sometimes we don't get those cues so with people like that, I always say I'm still going to ask the questions because I'm going to presume that they understand what I'm saying.
And I pray that the Holy Spirit teaches them through a way that they're able to understand and engage. So some people, it might be that you are just, in a way, providing the trait. And some children, for example, it might be a play tray for them. I've done this at home before where actually it's, it's, it's playtime. But I'm just going to use a Bible story because I'm going to make it intentional. And so the children might be playing. And as they're playing, you could add in those little questions of, oh, well, I wonder where, I don't know, maybe your little figure on that story is Jesus. Oh, I wonder where Jesus went that day. I wonder why he was talking to the other people, whatever the story might be. And so, yeah, so sometimes it might be more of a playful way, and then other times it is more of a reflective, let's sit down around this tray and really reflect deeper.
So it really depends on the ability. And again, if people are able to give you that feedback of the answers. But I, as I say, I always, I always ask those questions because you never know, they might go away. Still thinking about what you've told them?
Yeah. Tried to teach them about Jesus.
[00:23:37] Speaker A: I've seen you do this a number of times. Do you always give everybody a tray or do you do it in the center with one tray? How do you manage it?
[00:23:46] Speaker B: It depends on the size of the group, so. And the size of the tray.
[00:23:50] Speaker A: I.
[00:23:50] Speaker B: With the smaller trays, like the picnic trays, I would say five, six people maximum. Like, you could put it in the middle of a table or in the middle of the floor and you can sit around it.
Any more than that, I would provide more trays. So for example, in Sunday school, where we might have, I don't know, up to 30 children, I might give a tray per four or five children, same tray, but they just sit in little groups around their trays. I have done it on larger trays. We call them tough trays. I don't know if they're the same in Australia, but then obviously it's, it's a massive tray. And so I use that in holiday clubs. So I could get like 20 kids around one big tray. And then other times I have done it as personal trays. So independent of how many people are in the group, everyone can have their own. Yeah, sometimes I might be doing a group where people do sit on their own on this.
Yeah. Maybe the parent is sat with the child and so they get a tray of their own. So it's. Yeah. And that's all throughout the books, different ways that you can use them.
[00:24:53] Speaker A: I love the fact that it's so able to be changed up and done in different ways. And I love the fact that you could do it contemplatively or in a more engaged way with people. There's so many different ways you can do it. Well, thank you for joining us. It's been really wonderful to hear about the sensory traits and to hear about neurodiversity, and we'll look forward to catching up with you another time. Thank you so much for being with us. Kirsten. Bye.
Thank you for listening to Thriving.
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