Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome to Thriving.
Thriving is created by the discipleship and advocacy team of the Synod of Victoria and Tasmania Uniting Church in Australia.
This podcast is produced on the unceded land of the Wurundjeri people.
Welcome to Thriving. It's great to be here today with Tammy Preston. Tammy probably is well known to many of you because she works around Australia and New Zealand with an organisation called Intergenerate. And Intergenerate runs training and all sorts of webinars and podcasts which help grow thriving intergenerational communities of faith. So, Tammy, it's great to have you and your main message is exactly right in the centre of what this podcast all about. Tell us a little bit about you.
[00:00:46] Speaker B: Well, it is good to be here and I again, it's nice to connect with fellow colleagues that are on the journey and yeah, I suppose for me, for the last 25 years, if not more, I have been really longing to see community, communities thrive. Communities really flourishing in what it means when they gather and how they gather. And for me, in that context, as I read the Bible and as I kind of work that through as an educationalist, someone who's got my, you know, couple of some studies in that area, that I just feel like one of the best way is to be together.
That's what community is. And so from a biblical perspective, from a social perspective, from the way in which we are created and made, I just think that that's how we flourish. Not alone, but doing life together. And I've been doing that in local ministry all.
[00:01:39] Speaker A: Age is the way to grow disciples and people of faith.
[00:01:42] Speaker B: Yeah. And I mean, I would go deeper than all ages. I know Intergenerate does focus on the concept of age, but I just think across education, across interests, across cultures, I just think that sense of togetherness is the way in which that triune sense of community that is reflected right in the very beginning. Scripture, through God and who he is and what he created in the garden, is actually the best way for us to flourish. Everyone that is in that space. To me it is so much more than just age.
It is more about the sense of village and community and family that crosses across a whole lot of differences.
[00:02:26] Speaker A: So I find myself talking about inclusive community and using a lot of the stuff that's becoming really helpful in education around neurodiversity and around different brains. So I'll even say things like all the brains. It's about having all of everybody able to engage in worship and engage in discovering who God is, which is, is far more than just as you Say having the children in with the adults, that that's the very beginning of it. Can you say something more about how you see the nature of God as inclusive of all people?
[00:03:00] Speaker B: Yeah, so I mean are. And I've been kind of doing even a deeper dive than normal in the last six months or so as I'm writing a new book. And one of the things I don't think we've delved deeply enough in is just really looking through the lens of what is when God created His people from the very beginning in the garden out of Him. And it's very clear within Genesis, you know, it's this let us create in our image so that we start with this sense of that he sees Himself as community in itself. And we often talk about that within the context of the Trinity, but just that sense of God and Jesus and Holy Spirit, but definitely that language, it starts from the very beginning saying I want to create out of our image. And so for me that us, we our is such a, such a key part of who he is, but also then who he's called us to be because we are made in his image. And the garden was that perfect space or that the ideal space where he created, where he communed, walked intimately with, with his creation, his whole creation. And that was that beautiful relationship that I believe we are all trying to get back to that garden space of walking intimately with him and with each other. So then I've kind of been really weaving and deep diving right through all of the scriptures and have come up with kind of from beginning of Genesis right through to Revelations, 30 elements that really I just think are very, very strong, clear about how he wanted us as a people to be together on this earth to how we are, to actually function and gather and be and flourish and thrive together in order then that others might see and want to be, you know, out of that which is God's desire.
It really excites me. The kind of things that I'm seeing is like this kind of radical hospitality, this sense of celebration that we, that we need to do. Collaboration, diversity, you know, different voices, one anothering interactivity, you know, household equality. There's all these kind of words and they're just not words you do on your own. It is actually only works if we are in this together. And so to me that that's a framework that I, I just think is really important to keep reminding ourselves why are we doing what we're doing. And sometimes we get sidetracked in. You know, I wonder where tracks we've kind of gone down and not because, just because in our humanness or for our right desires. But I just want to keep coming back to what is the sole purpose of why we are here on this earth and how are we best to thrive and flourish in the short times that we have here?
[00:05:47] Speaker A: Fantastic. So I think you just gave us a little sneak peek into what some of the elements are you found in scriptures. But could you say a bit more about. You said there was 30, maybe three or four of what those elements are.
[00:05:59] Speaker B: It's funny, you know, I just get so caught in this. I mean, to me, that sense of holistic lifelong learning, that kind of thing, it's like we are a person that is spiritual, emotional, physical, intellectual. We are all these things. And then we also are designed to grow and flourish in lots of different ways.
And sometimes I think for all the right desires, our human nature is that we've kind of gone and focused on one or two of them really well and missed the rest. And I, you know, to me, we're focused on the head and we're focused on intellectual, and we've missed that, actually. We're all social beings. We're all created to learn in different ways. Where some of us are practical, some of us are dynamic, some of us, we're all these things and we need those kind of pieces that. And I mean, education has been talking about this for years. This is not new stuff. But somehow we're still caught in a little bit of a rut of when we are together somehow it's all about learning some input and learning it in a one way. That is the focus.
And I just. My heart breaks for the true flourishing of what it takes for anyone to do it. I mean, you know, the current conference that's coming up for Intergenerate is called Planted to Flourish. And again, I mean, we can learn so much from nature. Again, let's go back to the garden and the. Where God placed when he created humans in this beautiful, flourishing garden that had not only enough, but more than enough for them to have all that they needed. And there's a lot we can learn from that concept of what it takes for a tree to be deeply rooted, planted, strong, thriving, fruitful, all the. There's so many, so much beautiful imagery there. And he uses that to teach us what that looks like for us. What is a community that is deep, deeply rooted, that has got fruit, that is seasonal, that understands the seasons, understands all the elements. It's not just one thing that makes it grow. It's a whole lot of things. So to me, I get really excited about all of that because I think, you know, I believe a lot of Scripture and certainly the way in which we learn in a great way is through a lot of imagery and a lot of stuff that's around us. We see that right through the way Jesus taught. We see that right in the Old Testament. And so, again, being able to immerse ourselves in creativity or images and nature and the things that are around us, I think that helps us understand a little bit more about how we can flourish as a community.
[00:08:34] Speaker A: You mentioned the intergenerate conferences just then, and the idea of nature and flourishing.
People who haven't been to the conferences, what happens is that you move them around, don't you? So people can go to a conference in a place called Closer to Them. And we're hoping that there'll be some in Victoria, in Melbourne, particularly in about September, October, and if there is anybody listening who would like to host one, then they could contact Tammy or me directly and we can make that happen. But you have usually have other speakers that you beam in for the day. They're usually part of it. Who else is on your lineup of speakers for this year, and what might they be inviting us into?
[00:09:14] Speaker B: Yeah, so this year we've got Dr. Alan Harker is actually New Zealander, but he's living in Australia at the moment. And he is probably one of the, I think, one of the forefathers of this conversation about understanding how deeply rooted, this sense of intergener being together across the ages, being inclusive, being together, is very, very central to the biblical narrative. And so he's going to unpack that for us. And I'm really excited about that because I think it's really important to be talking about. Then we've got Melanie Cave, who is the UK in a ministry called Roots, and she is going to be talking about what it means to be deeply rooted into, you know, into who you are in God and what are some of those things that help to grow. And the roots of a tree, that is really important. And then our third input will come from John Roberto, who's from America, also incredibly wise and learned in the sense that he's just. He's really worked within Roman Catholic and liturgical spaces and really helping them rethink what is a healthy trunk, so that input will come from them. And then I will help facilitate some very interactive stuff as we grow, as we actually create a tree before our very eyes on the day, which I'm very excited about, and actually think about all those different elements for us.
[00:10:37] Speaker A: So one of the things I've loved about these conferences in the past is the creative way you build the story or build the same in our midst and that's really exciting. But to have three really important leaders internationally beam in for a conference in Melbourne or Sydney or Perth or Adelaide or wherever is really exciting. You and I both love to actually get our hands dirty and lead worship and to lead worship in this way where everybody is included creatively. Can you tell us something about what intergenerational or all age worship looks like in your context when you do it, what's going on?
[00:11:13] Speaker B: I really work hard to, when we have these conference days is to model that is that that's what often is. The question is, well, we kind of like, we really believe that that's, that's important, but we, we just don't know within our context what that looks like. And of course it's going to look different in every context. But so part of what that kind of really spurred me on, even in my studies, my recent studies, doctoral studies, and being able to actually spend some time with 14 different communities across New Zealand and Australia and actually see what that looks like. I was really interested of what that looks like kind of across the board of like seven different denominations, different kinds of sizes, different kinds of styles, and then being able to find some of the elements that actually work across those to really help engage whoever is in the room at the time. I definitely found there were certainly those that were doing that well had elements that are not. Again, it's not rocket science, but it is for some people. I suppose it's a real rethink or unlearning what we've known or understood about what it means to go to church. And I say that, I suppose you can hear in me a little. That's part of the problem is that we somehow got this mentality that says it's all about going to church or attending church.
And so we've got to rethink that, we've got to unpack that and go. If we are community, if we are gathering because it's so important for us to flourish, then what does that actually mean for family slash village, community to be together? So the elements were things like if you're going to be really practical things like times of chatting and sharing and talking and significant, this is not just turn to your person beside you and tell them the best part of your week. But, and we can start there, but actually what, you know, opening God's word and reading something and looking at each other and going, okay, what are we seeing here? So, like, really actually inviting voices into those spaces to wrestle and walk through and share and see different perspectives and listen to each other.
[00:13:26] Speaker A: I know, Tammy, when I've done this in my community, there's been times when I've had to go and preach in one of the other congregations, and then I've come back to do what I call curated meaning making or shared meaning making, where we do exactly what you just described. And there's often some creative input into how they do the thinking. But I often, when I've actually done both things on the same Sunday in two communities, I come back and think, my goodness, we got to exactly the same place and got there in a much better way in the intergenerational one than we did in the room where I just spoke the words, because I'm the minister and I'm allowed to speak the words. And I had a much stronger sense that everybody in the room had got there together and that they'd thought about it. And wrestling is a word I love to use. Whereas when you in the traditional setting and I'm just speaking my very important words, people nod and smile and say, well done, minister. That was an excellent sermon when I walk out. But did they really hear it? Did they really understand it? Yes. And that's why I'm convicted that I prefer the let's all wrestle and make the meaning together method.
[00:14:26] Speaker B: I want to pick up on elements because I think that you then put them into whatever you want to do. So of course you know that. That for many people, that means prayer and it means worship and all those kind of standard things. But if you want to actually change the way in which we do this together, you have to think of the elements.
So things like interactivity, things like many voices, things like creative arts and the visual kind of multimedia, which kind of allows people to enter into different spaces. The thing of what it means for small, more kind of input and allowing kind of, again, that time of wrestling or chewing on. On what's going on. And so for me, those kind of things change not only your preparation potentially, but also what you actually do when you gather and you're right in the end, what it does is everyone feels like we're a part of this process and we've kind of come to this together. And even if we don't even land on the same page because we're all at different stages.
I mean, God is bigger. God is so big. He can handle that. He can handle even our doubts. Like, I think one of the things that people say to me all the time is, oh, well, how can you trust that they're gonna get it right? I'm like, oh, my gosh, who says I've got it right? Isn't that the journey to me that is this beautiful? Well, it's an Eastern way of learning. There's a kind of saying that if you put, you know, 12 rabbis in a room, you'd get 15 different opinions,
[00:15:55] Speaker A: and I think only 15.
[00:15:57] Speaker B: As Westerners, we're afraid of that. But actually, I think if we can learn to embo. Embrace that, there is so much more to be learned, rather than me just sharing with you what you need to believe, and you kind of not really wrestling with that yourself. So when those things are happening, whether it be through worship, through learning, through serving, through mission, through creating something together, it has to be holistic. It has to be. In all those ways, we are always learning. And if we come knowing that we are all learners and that we are all teachers and that we have this interplay, this beautiful accompaniment together, I just think that's. That's actually a really beautiful environment. And for me, we often jump into this question like this, and because we want to go straight to the practicals, but I think we've missed often some of the important questions that come before that to actually lay down an environment that allows those things to happen. And so to me, I want to step back and say, which is, I think is a question you've given me anyway to consider is how do we help communities get to this space? And the reality is, to me, we've got to step back into our own heart checks of this sense of trust and a safe place. It takes a long time to build trust and safe places where people can have voices, where people can disagree, where people can say they don't understand, when people can say they don't know, when people can say, hey, this is really hard. And to me, that's actually more. I think God's more interested in creating the safe places than us walking away going, okay, I've learned something today. He's more interested in how do you feel Connected, belonging? How do you feel like you belong? How do you feel like you're a part of something? How do you know that? You know that you're loved and that actually God is enough? Those are the things that I just think are really key. When I. When we talked originally about community, we talked about this beautiful unity that came in the very beginning with God, and there is unity within him. And he is longing for that unity for all of us, including when we are together. And I just imagine what message we would give to the world if those that gathered because of who Christ is were so unified and so connected and so safe and felt so loved, that that would have to make an impact in the world. And sadly, I'm not sure if that's the way people see the church.
[00:18:29] Speaker A: And to be really clear about what you just said then about unified, you are not talking about unified meaning monoculture. You're talking about unified in Christ with all of the diversity of humanness that we bring with us so we don't have to stop being Korean Christians or Tongan Christians or Christians with neurodiversity or any other kind of human being that God's created us to be. The unity is in Christ. It's not about once you become one of us, we're automatonically the same kind of creation.
[00:18:58] Speaker B: Absolutely. And that's why I love the imagery of the branches and the imagery of the body. I mean, like, it's all there because there's our body functions. I'm a whole person, but every part of my body is so different and has so many different pieces to it and functions to it. And I, you know, it's such a beautiful imagery of Corinthians when it says, when the eye doesn't say to the hand, you know, I don't need you, and all that kind of stuff. I just think like, he has made it so clear for us and yet we are still having these arguments. How do we enjoy and celebrate our commonality, things that we have in common? And that is, you know, certainly should be Christ. But speaking of belonging, one of the things that I found really fascinating when I spoke to 7 year olds and 97 year olds is that their deep desire to belong was exactly the same. It didn't matter if I was talking to an Asian church in Victoria or Korean church in New Zealand or a, you know, all these different people had this same desire to want to be seen and known, to feel like they were cared for, to feel like they felt like they were family, to feel like they had a voice that they were, had something to offer.
And, and it's beautiful because we have this bigger picture of, you know, God's story that we get to be invited into and, and he's longing for us to play our part in the body. So I know it sounds all very simple and maybe even utopian, but I, I know I lived it for 18 years in the faith community that I led. And I know how incredibly life giving it was for us all, no matter if you were 80 or if you were 7. And so I know it's possible and I know that through God it's a place where people flourish.
[00:20:47] Speaker A: Yeah. Amen.
I'm wondering if there's one last thing that you would be sad if you hadn't had the opportunity to say about what it means to grow a thriving intergenerational community.
[00:20:58] Speaker B: Boy, rather than kind of coming with our. This is what we've always done. This is, you know, this is, this is that I've got to maintain all this stuff. You know, this is always grown. This is, this is the resources that we have. And sometimes all those things that the human piece of those can actually get us distracted to kind of going back to the simplicity of where I. What I think look, you know, he, he said that his yoke is easy and yet I don't see a lot of ministry people feeling very light in their yoke. And I want to keep asking us why do we keep doing this? If his yoke is easy and it's his story, what would it look like for us to trust his story and let go of some stuff that we're carrying in order to see what it might look like for us to thrive with him and with each other? I would really long for that for our churches.
[00:21:54] Speaker A: I wonder.
As you're talking, I'm imagining and thinking about the fact that there's a lot of scripture about pruning and a lot of scripture about, you know, cutting things off and putting them in the fire. And actually I think you're talking about some of the dead wood that we have around our community and the way that we do things and our practices and the things that bind us that make that yoke heavy, which are not the things of God and the things of Jesus. And maybe just thinking about what is God calling us to prune, what is God calling us to let go of, which is what you just invited us. Us into is really helpful.
[00:22:30] Speaker B: Yeah. And that's really part of what the process of what we'll do at Endegenerate this year. We planted to flourish. We've got, we'll go back, we will spend some time in lament of the fruitlessness and the things we do need to prune because it's a hard message, you know, that I am the vine, you are the branches, and I'm going to prune you. But you need to trust me because it's going to make you stronger. It's such a beautiful, beautiful metaphor. And he's doing it in our own lives, and he's doing it in our faith communities, and he's doing in our families and he's doing in our villages. And if we allow him to do that, I just think we get to be a part of a really beautiful story.
[00:23:07] Speaker A: Yeah. If we want to come to Intergenerate, how do we find out about it?
[00:23:11] Speaker B: Intergenerate.comau on the website.
[00:23:16] Speaker A: Well, thank you, Tammy. It's always a delight. I said to you before we got online that I think what happens when I talk to people I have a lot in common with is that we start to scratch the surface and then we realize there's an awful lot of other things we talk about again. So it'd be lovely to have another conversation next year, maybe about a more targeted area of thriving. Or maybe people might want to write in and say what they'd like to hear us talk about, what they'd like to hear me ask you about next time. Thank you for being with me and we look forward to catching up again.
[00:23:47] Speaker B: Absolute pleasure. And yes, hopefully I will. We will see you face to face soon.
[00:23:51] Speaker A: Thanks. Bye.
Thank you for listening to Thriving.
This podcast is hosted and produced by Sandy Brodine. If you have enjoyed Thriving, don't forget to like and subscribe. You might also like to share with your church community or friends and talk about how these ideas can help you grow your thriving community of faith. We'll see you next time.
